Why Valedictorians Get Denied

A big welcome to our new host, Stephanie D’Souza! In this episode, Stephanie shares what she learned reading applications inside multiple admissions offices, including Duke University. She explains why highly selective decisions hinge on mission fit, real impact, and character, not just perfect grades and “checking the boxes.” 
• Stephanie’s admissions background across research universities, junior college, and a highly selective office 
• What admitted students show beyond stats: mission alignment, impact, authenticity 
• The academic baseline and how readers evaluate rigor by high school context and the school profile 
• Building extracurricular depth, initiative, and community impact instead of stacking activities 
• “Fit to major” and ways to prove academic curiosity through classes, research, and credible exploration 
• Helping undecided students find authentic interests by tracking what they choose in free time 
• Why pay-to-play summer programs do not move the needle and when they can still be useful 
• How character shows up in recommendations, including why “the B class” can reveal grit 
• Essays as a “whisper in the ear” that adds reflection and voice beyond the activity list 
• Test optional reality, when strong scores help, and when not to submit 
• Institutional priorities that students cannot control and how to interpret confusing outcomes 
If today's episode resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with someone who needs study guidance right now.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Stephanie

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Feeling overwhelmed by college admissions? You're not alone. Welcome to College Planning Simplified. I'm your host, Stephanie D'Astuza with Advantage College Planning. Each month, I'll sit down with industry professionals and consultants to bring you expert insights from across the admissions landscape. Clear strategies, honest guidance, no unnecessary stress. Let's simplify this together.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hi everyone. I'm Brooke Daly, the founder of Advantage College Planning, and I'm here with our new podcast host, Stephanie D'Souza. Stephanie, I am so excited that you'll be taking over the mic for us. Welcome. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I am so excited. I'm so excited to share my insight and to talk with professionals and just be part of this community. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

So for our listeners, I will share that Stephanie has an extensive background in college admissions. And part of her journey was working in the admissions office at Duke University, which I know a lot of parents will have questions about. But Stephanie, let's jump in and start by talking a little bit about your experience in college admissions so that our listeners get to know you and the perspective that you bring to this work.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Sure. Thank you. Well, I started out working in policy work and then moved to the Fulbright program with the State Department, which is with graduate students. And then I have experience at a large research institution at the University of Maryland and then moved into a junior college, which was a neat experience. Didn't know much about junior colleges, but work there and then have experience a Duke at a highly selective institution. So really saw the ins and outs of what goes into those decision-making processes. And then decided that I really just wanted to get back to counseling and work one-on-one with students. So decided to become an independent college consultant. And I'm so glad you did.

What Selective Colleges Actually Seek

SPEAKER_01 2:04

That's awesome. So you have a perspective of quite a like a variety, I guess, of admissions offices and experiences. So longtime listeners won't be surprised to hear me say that our philosophy is to help students find a good fit college academically, socially, financially. Ultimately, we want our students to have a variety of college options that they're really excited about. But I also want to be real that a lot of the families who listen to this podcast or who we work with really want to know what it takes to get into a highly selective school. So, Stephanie, in your experience at Duke, I know you were denying valedictorians and really academically successful students. Can you talk a little bit about what admitted students had that other students didn't?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah, you're so right. I mean, we saw valedictorians, perfect test scores. We saw all of it. These are the cream of the crop applying to these selective institutions. And admissions at these schools, I think it's about, I think it's about alignment with institutional missions. I think it's about impact. And I think it's about authenticity, not just perfection. Parents often say, well, my student checks all the boxes. Um, their transcript is perfect, but it goes much deeper than that. Um, and I can get into that in how we look at extracurriculars, in how we look at recommendations, essays, those all play into the holistic review baseline. You need to have the rigor and the grades and tests come into play as well. We're not seeing those tests go away. But it's much more than that. And we cannot ignore fit and institutional missions. And if the students align with their values, all too often, you know, when we're talking about admissions decisions, we're we're looking at shaping a class and what the school needs for that incoming class. That definitely um plays a part.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

So what I hear you saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you mentioned having a certain baseline. So for a student who is maybe a B student who's done some really cool things extracurricularly, maybe they started a club that took off, and now it's, you know, there are chapters of it across the US. How would you advise that student who's really interested in a place like Duke?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah, I definitely think there is a place for them because it is more than just grades. So a few B's here and there. I mean, we look at, so we dig into the transcript. If there are bees, where are they? What programs do they mention that they're interested in? And so we look at trend, we look at where their stronger grades are and the rigor of their coursework. But you mentioned those impactful extracurriculars. And I think that that speaks volumes. We definitely look for depth over breadth. You'll hear the word impact, that's just thrown around, that's in the the higher ed lingo right now. So, how did the student impact their community? And community can be more than their high school. And did they leave a legacy? Will the school or their community miss them? Did they solve a problem? So I think that, you know, there's always, we're always looking for leaders who have initiatives, but community impact is really um, is really playing into admissions um nowadays. And does this student have passion and curiosity, right? And that goes beyond grades. I love that.

Course Rigor And School Context

SPEAKER_01 5:53

So thinking about curriculum and grades, though, because it is such an important part, I think, of highly selective admissions, because I think there are some situations, maybe not a Duke, um, and I won't get into specific schools, but there are situations where a student is not going to be admitted if they don't have like what you referenced as a baseline. If we're not getting primarily A's, you know, especially when we're thinking about like the IVs and just the highly selective schools, that it just is really difficult for those students to overcome that. Can you talk a little bit about rigor of curriculum? That's a conversation that we've been having a lot right now, just time-wise, because it's that time when we're selecting or we're helping our students select courses for next year. Um, and maybe you could talk a little bit about what it means contextually from the high school where a student is coming from. I think that's a great place to start.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I want students to understand that readers read applications by school. So we would have a group of applications and we're reading them at the same time from students at the same school because we want to understand the context of what was available at the student's school. And um, one piece of information that's particularly important is the school profile. So if a student doesn't know what this is, they should speak to their counseling office or student services to understand this resource that is available to colleges and institutions and the public that outlines the curriculum offered at the high school because high schools aren't the same. One high school in rural North Carolina might look very different than a private school in Manhattan. And so I'm looking at students from the same high school at the same time and seeing did the student take advantage of the curriculum available to them? Did they go, did they meet it? Did they go above and beyond? And so we start there. What did they take advantage of? Very cool. Awesome.

Activities That Create Real Impact

SPEAKER_01 8:01

And I think that's so important because a lot of families feel like, oh, you know, we just don't have the same opportunities as some of the students in other, you know, places or counties. And it's important to remember that college admission folks are reviewing that application in the context of where you're I would love to talk a little bit about activities. And I'm gonna brag on Stephanie for a minute because she led the development of our curriculum around activities and she created some of the things that we now do with our students in order to get them thinking about the things that they love spending their time doing or their academic interests. Um, and we call it our LEAP framework, which is really cool. But Stephanie, do you want to talk a little bit about activities and maybe how that shows up on applications and how students can best present, you know, what they've done during their high school years?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah. This is such a great question. And how many times do we have students or parents say, well, I need to sign up for one more volunteer opportunity? And so I start with saying, why? Why do you feel that? What is your attention? Because there needs to be intentionality behind everything that we do. I would much rather see a student deeply involved in say two or three things than lightly involved in 15, right? It goes more than beyond checking the box. I talked about impact, I talked about legacy. And sometimes students feel like they have nothing, that they are they're just their average student, and they don't realize that there are so many activities that can lead to community impact. So we start with asking a student what they're curious about. And this can be an academic interest, this can elaborate on a hobby, but I want to get them thinking about digging deeper into their interests and curiosities. And sometimes that means, you know, leading into an extracurricular that's not something that we sign up for, right? It's not a club or an organization or something we try out for, like an athletic team or drama club or band. Sometimes it's something that they develop themselves, right? That shows initiative, or it could be something that they're already involved in. Maybe it's a club, but they decide to go deeper. They they see a gap and they work to fix it. They use their community resources, they um really are intentional about taking that club or organization to the next level and impacting their community, whether that's their high school or their local community. I love that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

And I think that's really important. One of the things that I saw this, especially in this past admission cycle, was that so many of my students had to write a supplemental essay about community impact. And it was really helpful for me, even as a consultant, to you know, prepare my ninth and tenth graders, even to talk about that. Like when you apply to college, likely you're going to have to answer this question about the impact you had on your community. So let's start talking about that now so that you can be prepared. And oh, by the way, along the way, you're actually going to have an impact on your community. So it's a win-win. So I have noticed that. One thing that we also heard a lot this year in the admissions world was the concept of fit to major. Do you want to talk a little bit about what that means or what students should be thinking about when it comes to fit to major?

Fit To Major Without Locking In

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Sure. They want to see that a student has exposed themselves to an academic field of interest, right? And so if a student tells me, I'm interested in neuroscience, I say, that's amazing. And we have a discussion and we look at their list of activities, and nothing screened neuroscience. And I say, How did you become interested in neuroscience? When they say, Well, that was actually a topic in AP psychology. Awesome. I love when a high school class sparked an interest and a curiosity. But now we need to dig a little bit deeper to not only help ourselves, right? But to show the admissions team that we um did the work and exposed ourselves to this field. It gives us something to talk about in those supplemental essays. So for a student like that, I would encourage them to look into professional associations where maybe they can be a student member and sit in on um discussions, or if they're having local um chapter gatherings to really expose themselves. I encourage them to do uh personal research projects. And those, it doesn't have to be such a high-level thing. It could start by talking to their AP psychology teacher who might have connections in the community. Or it could be reaching out to local professors to see if they could do some research. It could be a myriad of things. But what we want to show is that we had the drive and the initiative to dig deeper into an academic area so that on the transcript somewhere we can prove that. It could be taking a class. There are platforms out there, Coursera, edX, where students can sign up for free classes to really dig deeper. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Thank you. Those are all fantastic suggestions. I'm wondering about those students or the parents who are listening right now who are like, oh, my student doesn't know what they want to do or what they want to major in. What advice would you give those families?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

My advice would be to track what your student does when they are not in class, when they are just lounging around. What are they drawn to in their free time? And that could be what kind of videos do they watch on TikTok, right? It could be as simple as that. What kind of books are they? Well, I love if they're reading books. What kind of podcasts are they listening to? What kind of news are they drawn to? But we all have these curiosities. And it could be, you know, I'm gonna talk about my daughter. She loves nail art. She's in seventh grade and she loves nails. And that can go somewhere, right? Just because she likes to watch TikTok videos and how to do your nails, we we can go somewhere with that. You'd be surprised. But every student is different. I don't want to curate a curiosity that does not exist, right? We we need to be authentic, but it starts there. We all have something, we all have interests and skills and our own special talents.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

I love that. So, Stephanie, I have I'm gonna make you drill a little bit deeper into the nails. I think for our listeners, give us an example of what someone could do with that particular interest that would have some kind of bigger impact.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Sure. I mean, there's an art behind that. You can study the culture of that. I mean, you could take that even further when we talk about community impact. You could take a class and be certified in nail art and then serve the community, maybe look out at local organizations and groups where you can offer your services, right? So it's not only learning a craft, but it's serving. I think it's that perfect blend of if there's an interest or curiosity, how can we better inform ourselves? Can we link it to an academic field? And then can we can we make an impact in our community? I love that. Thank you.

Summer Programs And The Real Value

SPEAKER_01 15:56

So along the same lines of activities, a lot of families ask us about the pay-to-play program. Well, I call them pay-to-play programs. We can talk about what that means. But the summer programs for high school students on selective college campuses. And I say pay-to-play because, of course, they're high-ticket opportunities that, you know, if you fill out the application and you pay the fee, you can go. You know, it's not highly selective to do the summer program, but a lot of families ask us, you know, does that move the needle in the admissions process? Do you want to speak to that a little bit? Like what how would you advise families who are thinking about those opportunities?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Sure. It does not move the needle. It will not move your maybe to a yes. However, I think they are valuable, especially for students in the ninth and tenth grade, if they can. If they can and they have the ability to attend to better inform themselves, right? It's building their knowledge base. I remember chatting with a student who thought they were going to be pre-med. She was going to go to med school down the line, had big dreams, went to essentially like a pre-med kind of camp, came back, and she said, absolutely not. I couldn't stomach it. And so great. Sometimes the best things is to know what we don't want. So I do think it's valuable for information gathering, but it's not going to be the activity that moves the needle and gets you into a highly selective institution.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah, thank you. And I think it's reassuring for families to know you don't have to be in order to get into these schools. That's just so thinking about other things that I guess matter or have an impact in highly selective admissions. So we've talked about curriculum, we've talked about grades, we've talked about activities. So can you talk a little bit about what other factors are really important?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

So I'd like to talk a little bit about how character is playing into admissions. Because at these institutions, we have these students who are so talented, they have tons of initiative. They're your go-getters, right? They're your change makers. But let's look a little bit deeper about their character. And I say that because as we shape a class, we want to know the types of students who will be sitting in the classrooms, who will be living in the dorms, who will be engaging in classroom discussions, right? And character comes through it in many different ways. One of the ways it comes through are those letters of recommendation, which are read and taken into consideration. And just as I said, that we look at transcripts as a school group, we also look at letters of recommendation as a school group. So in some schools, the large public schools, counselors just don't have the bandwidth to write letters, but some schools do, particularly private schools. And they might write lengthy recommendations. And if I'm looking at, say, five students from a selective private high school, they're all lengthy, but I look for maybe what's not being said. What's being said in one, but what's not being said in the other. And so that is the detail that we look at these recommendations, both from counselors and from teachers. Character comes through. Obviously, academic rigor and how well they did in the classroom, but also their personality comes in. And so I like to share this with students when we're working together to see this is exactly how you're going to be evaluated. So, how do you think they're going to answer this? How do you think you showed up in the classroom or the halls of your high school? And then also the letters that teachers and counselors might write. So character comes through there, but character also comes through on essays and how students share who they are beyond achievements. And like I said before, I think authenticity matters more than impressiveness. So when students are writing essays, reflection is key. But character can come through there. Character also comes through on that activity list. How did a student choose to spend their time? Where did they choose to spend their time? We only have so much time in a day. And so it can be reflected there as well. So I think that's something that we dig into a little bit beyond the grades and the test scores that students should be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

I love that. So one question that we get often from students and from parents is should they choose the teacher who gave them, you know, the A plus, but doesn't know them as well? Or maybe the English teacher who they think is going to be a good writer with that letter of recommendation? Or should you choose the teacher who maybe gave the student a B but saw them struggle and crow?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Oh, I love the B. I love seeing struggle. You know what we call that? We call that grit. Because college isn't always going to be easy, right? And we want to, we want to accept those students that are in for the long run, that are not going to give up when the going gets tough, that will know where to look to find the resources to help them be the best version of themselves. So sure, it's great to see a student have a recommendation from a class that they enjoyed and that they excelled in, and that they had an impact. Maybe they helped others, maybe they were a leader and really engaged in class discussions, but I would not discount the teacher in the class where they might have struggled a little bit, but they sought out that teacher's help after class. They met with them regularly, they organized. Peer study groups, you know, they took the initiative to help themselves and advocate for themselves. I think that speaks volumes.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Oh, I love that. Thank you, Stephanie. I know with our juniors right now, we're talking about asking teachers at the end of the semester. So, parents and students, if you're thinking about teachers to ask, like start, or I should say, start thinking about which teachers you may want to ask for your letter. And that way you ask them and they have the summer to write it, and then you can get it in the fall when school is back in. So, Stephanie, you had um briefly mentioned essays and character and how character can be shown through the essay. And you've mentioned before that the essay is a whisper in the ear. Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yes, I love the whisper in the ear. It's a time when a student can really be themselves. They are more than grades, they are more than their test scores. This is a time for them to show us who they are. And the personal statement is a great opportunity for a student to showcase part of their identity and part of their values. And I love to see this played out through anecdotal evidence or a story. It can be a short snippet. It doesn't have to be this long. You know, the worst kind of essays are really those that rehash their activity list or their resume. It's the essays that don't provide any new information. But I love essays that really have this inside voice, this inside dialogue where the student is speaking to me. This is who I am. This is who I care about. This is what I've been through. And this is how I make my decisions. This is how I make my relate, I create my relationships. So those are the essays that really can um tell much more than you think. Oh, I love that, Stephanie.

Test Scores Plus What You Cannot Control

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I'm sure we could talk a lot more about essays, but I know that that's going to be a future topic on College Planning Simplified's podcast. So stay tuned for more from Stephanie about essays. The one thing I think we haven't talked about, Stephanie, in relation to, you know, highly selective schools would be test scores and the current testing landscape. Do you want to just talk a little bit about what we're seeing and what's important right now for students to have in mind?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, even in this test optional era, we were seeing that scores still matter. They're not going away. I think they're coming back. And strong score can really reinforce academic readiness sometimes, because we know that some schools inflate grades, right? So I think it is it's still coming into play. But we also know that some students just aren't great test takers. And if we have the opportunity, if a school is test optional and a student just does not have the test scores, and when I mean when I say that if they're below the middle 50% of scores of accepted students, then we won't submit them. But I don't want to discount that they still matter. Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

That's helpful. And our team is going to be doing a webinar all about ACT scores for our local families here in North Carolina. You'll be taking the ACT at school because it is a state test. And so for those families, we're going to do a webinar all about how to interpret your ACT scores, a good testing timeline, when to prep, where to prep, all of those things. So more to come on that soon. Stephanie, I am so excited that you're taking over the podcast. Do you have any other final thoughts or words of wisdom for our listeners before we wrap up this episode?

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Sure. I just want to also just touch on the things that students have no control over. And those are called institutional priorities. And so when the admissions decision might come back and it's not what a student hoped for, and it just doesn't make sense, it's probably because it doesn't make sense. And colleges, like I said before, they're shaping a class and they consider things beyond what a student has control over. And that could be intended major distribution. Like maybe this highly selective is trying to grow a particular academic program or department. And so they're both trying to bolster that acceptance to that major. Maybe it's geographic diversity and they just need more students from Kansas. And you're from North Carolina. Maybe it's first generation status. Maybe it's students with special talents, right? You know, students are applying to the arts field. You have athletes. So there's so much going on in the committee room that's being talked about that your student just doesn't have control over. So it's so much more than about who's qualified. It's about what the incoming class needs.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

What a great reminder, Stephanie. And, you know, we talk to our students about this all of the time, but just reminding them too that it's not where you go that determines your success, right? So I think that that's that's a great reminder. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again, Stephanie. I'm excited for you to um be our future host and for future episodes. Absolutely.

Closing And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 27:29

I'm looking forward to any twelve. Thanks for listening to the College Planning Simplified Podcast. If today's episode resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with someone who needs study guidance right now. I'll see you next time.